One
of my aims for this blog is to have more participation from readers, I have
therefore started, on a trial basis, a discussion topic section.
Each
time, I will present two discussion topics and hopefully have other readers
input and ideas on the subject.
Topic
1
Sérgio Bernardino ‘Serginho Chualapa’
of São Paulo Futebol Clube has always been presented as the scapegoat for
Brazil not winning the 1982 World Cup.
Despite
scoring two goals in the World Cup, historically, he has been perceived to be
the weak link in that fine squad.
For
all (specially Brazilian readers out there), what are your theories as to why?
 |
Photo
from: Onze-Mondial, December 1989
(Serginho and Daniel Passarella, July 2, 1982,
World Cup, Brazil 3-Argentina 1) |
Topic
2
It has long been suggested that had Mark Robins
not scored for Manchester United, in the FA Cup vs. Nottingham Forest in
January 1990, Alex Ferguson would have been fired.
While
that may be true for the moment, in retrospect, I believe the 1991 Cup Winners
Cup victory vs. Barcelona seems more critical.
Without
this victory he may still have been fired in the then near future.
This
triumph was the catalyst for Manchester United making a push for the League
Title in the following seasons.
What
are your theories as to why?
 |
Photo
from: Onze-Mondial, June 1991
(Mark Hughes and Ronald Koeman, May 15, 1991,
Cup Winners Cup, Manchester United 2-Barcelona 1) |
Regarding Serginho, I seem to remember that he was not the first choice for no.9... A young Antonio Careca was going to be the starter (he was also includer in the Panini sticker album for Espana '82) but suffered an injury before the tournament and Serginho got the job. Maybe a brazilian reader can help us recalling the exact circumstances.
ReplyDeleteTele santana was crazy for selecting serginho after the first game against the ussr. Yes brazil had injuries to reinaldo and careca but santana could have selected another player from the squad he had. Even isidoro would have been better up front but in my opinion the team should have been : peres leandro oscar luisinho junior batista cerezo falcao eder socrates zico... Batista as the defensive midfielder.. Even moving junior into midfield and playing pedrinho at left back. They could have played without a forward and used zico as a false 9.. But santana was mental surely.
DeleteI agree with you, that line-up makes a lot of sense. Socrates pushed forward as he played in the Copa de Oro. Junior in the midfield adds quality, and Pedriho was good enough. Mexico '86 team had much more sense, though with less individual quality.
Deleteyes, Careca was replaced by Roberto Dinamite in the Finals squad
ReplyDeletejust before the tournament Serginho also scored 2 goals vs. republic of Ireland, in a 7-0 win, after replacing careca at halftime, that also might have played in his favor
ReplyDeleteCareca was not in the 82 panini sticker album he was in the 1986 edition... Serginho is the reason brazil 82 failed.. He was awful. He scored alot of goals at club level but he was a target man not suited to play infront of eder zico etc.. Santana was an idiot for playing him after the opening game..serginho was painful to watch..against italy his lack of technique cost brazil.. Brazil 82 were a ten man team...watch the full games..their defence was not half as bad as people claim. Oscar and luisinho were great defenders. With a decent centre forward they would have outscored any opponent.. And thats the tragedy of brazil 82
ReplyDeleteAs an Italian, I might add that here we all know that Brazil was the team that should have won that World Cup. Historically, Italy was brighter in Argentina '78 (though a bit tired in the last matches) and better in Italy'90 (and, with a fit Roberto Baggio in the final, also in '94). Those were the Cups we would have deserved more to win (IMHO obviously)
DeleteThe 1978 was a good team, they started brightly but were overcome with long range shots of holland and brazil
DeleteSome more info I found here: http://www.v-brazil.com/world-cup/history/1982-Spain.php
ReplyDeleteThe favourite of Telê for the position was Careca, who would play later in the cups of 1986 and 1990; Careca suffered a serious injury already in Spain, and had to be substituted by Roberto Dinamite, who had been Brazil's striker in the 1978 Cup; rumours of the epoch said that Roberto's wife had links with black magic, and had arranged for Careca's injury.
Giles, what do you think about that? Was Dinamite up to the standards? He played in Argentina as well, and has been a consistent goal scorer throughout his entire career.
Roberto dinamite had a short spell with barcelona as well, I seem to remember by 1982 he was not the player he once was, incidentally another 1978 standout dirceu played the first match vs ussr was then dropped
ReplyDeleteDo you guys remember any controversy about Brazilian strikers being dropped from the finals squad that might have made an impact?
ReplyDeleteI remember there was alot of debate in brazil who should have been in the 82 starting line up and squad. Believe it or not the brazil 82 squad was not as harmonious as it seemed. Socrates didnt want falcao in the team because he only played one warm up game (against ireland) isidoro,mario sergio or ze sergio usually played. But ze sergio ( a relation of rivelino) never went to the world cup although he appeared in the panini sticker album. Ze sergio lost his place to eder although santana was cautious of taking eder because of his temper and discipline. .. Tita or nunes of flamengo would have been a good choice but santana chose serginho because he had scored loads of goals in the league... The best forward at the time was reinaldo who played the world cup qualifiers but santana didnt take him because he was injury prone. But even half fit reinaldo was better than dinamite or serginho. Careca we all know about.. Reinaldo had a great understanding with eder at atletico mineiro and its a shame those 2 didnt play together at the world cup.. Incidentally if you re interested eder once took a shit in santanas shoes after an argument at gremio ! And eder got shot in a nightclub in 1978 when on the verge of his brazil debut.. But apart from serginho and dirceu (who was past his best by then) all the players in the 82 squad were the best santana could choose. he was one class striker away from having the perfect squad
DeleteThank you Giles, this is precisely the type of historical information and anecdotes I envisioned for this blog
DeleteEder was in fact cut from the 1986 squad for indidcipline
DeleteAnother story I remember from Santana is that leandro quit the 1986 after Santana excluded one of his friends and apparently one player cut from 1986 was quoted as saying that if Santana was dying of thirst in the desert he would not give him water , do you remember these stories?
DeleteYeah i remember those stories mate... I cant recall which player said that statement ( may have been eder) ... But leandro quit because renato portaluppi was left out the squad for breaking a curfew.. Eder had been dropped because he punched a peruvian player in retaliation and this was too much for leandro apparently.. He felt santana was getting rid of two of his best talents..it was a ridiculous decision from santana but if leandro had gone to mexico we would have never got to see josimar !!!
DeleteI also remember the goalkeeper valdir Peres getting some criticism for not being as excellent as his teammates
ReplyDeleteGiles, what about Peres? Against Italy I don't remember any particular mistakes from him. But the fact that in '85 Santana was thinking about recalling old Leao seems to suggest that in the early '80s Brazil was not producing particularly brilliant goalkeepers. Carlos in Mexico was good enough, If i remember well.
ReplyDeleteNice to talk to you simone.. You know your football !! Roberto dinamite is a vasco legend he was always at the top of the scoring charts. He wasnt blessed with perfect technique and touch ( although miles better than serginho) but he knew how to shoot ! Thats how he got the name dinamite. He was injured slightly before the 82 world cup so why santana selected him i ll never know. .. Did you know serginho escaped a prison sentence for domestic violence so he could play at the 82 world cup ? !! Santana was mental. He experimented with socrates at centre forward in a few warm up games but only tried it out against italy in the last 20 minutes of the game..
DeleteGuys, what do you think about this 'alternative history list' of World Cup winners? Netherlands '74; Italy '78; Brazil '82; France '86.
ReplyDeleteI would have loved to see Maradona vs. Platini in the final in '86, though Michel was not in such good shape. And also Italy vs England in the final of Italia '90.
I am not sure England for 1990, west germany was clearly a better team in 1990 in my opinion
DeleteYeah, maybe a bit tired in the last couple of games (Semifinals and finals) compared to the brilliance of their early appearances in the tournament.
DeleteCarlos was on the 1978 and 1982 squads, he even played in 1992 for brazil
ReplyDeleteI didn't know he was already there in '78.
ReplyDeleteYes the backup goalkeepers in 1978 were valdir Peres and carlos
ReplyDeleteBasically the same (with Leao) for 3 world cups, before the appearance of Taffarel.
ReplyDeleteI forgot was leao understudy to Felix in 1970?
ReplyDeleteYeah leao was understudy in 1970 mate.. Regarding peres.. He was a hero for sao paulo an expert penalty saver ! He saved 2 penalties against west germany for brazil before the 82 world cup..raul of flamengo and joao leite were also in contention for a squad place but peres got the nod. Peres was a good shot stopper and the mistake against the ussr gave the impression of a poor keeper but it was the only mistake he made in the tournament. He was better than felix though! .. Much is made of how bad brazils 82 defence was but its a bit of a myth. Oscar and luisinho were great centrebacks. Brazil closed down the opposition all over the pitch much like spain do today. They hadnt conceded more than a goal in 20 odd matches.. Because they were so good and confident in their ability brazil sometimes played a risky pass or over elaborated but that was why they were so great to watch. Individual error cost them- not bad defending. The only tragedy of brazil 82 is they had no striker. Had careca or reinaldo been fit we would not discuss the defence and we d be talking of the greatest ever world cup team.. They could have played without a forward and used zico or socrates as a false 9 as they did in some friendlies but sadly santana was stubborn and continued to pick the inept serginho
ReplyDeleteAnd simone.. About the alternative world cup winners.. Yes holland 74 should have won.superb team but they couldve won it in 78 as well against the cheating argies..italy holland and brazil couldve won it in 78.. In 82 brazil shouldve walked it and i also think brazil shouldve won in 86. I know the french teams of 82 and 86 were great but brazil were better. The french lost 3-1 to england in 82 and had a far easier second group stage. Even platini said he would ve struggled to get in the 80s brazil teams. Italy had their best ever team in 1990 and shouldve gone all the way.they were better than the germans. And england were dead lucky against belgium and cameroon. In 94 its hard to say.. Holland had a great line up as did the argies but brazil had romario and a solid work horse team. In 98 the french team is highly overrated they struggled in a few games.. Brazil were awful in 98 so lucky against denmark and holland.. I think croatia and holland were the best to watch in that tournament.. But what about if the world cup had been held a year earlier 1977 1981 1985 1989 etc ... Now thats a good question.. By the way its nice to discuss football with intelligent people for a change !!
ReplyDeleteA beautiful thread, albeit only with 3 participants! It's a pleasure.
ReplyDeleteYes, Italy '90 is, if not the better italian team I've ever seen, definitely the one that played better. Beautiful, attacking football with skilful players like Giannini and Donadoni in the midfield. Too bad we hadn't a prolific goalscorer, only Schillaci that summer seemed to know his way. If Carnevale (starter in the first match vs Austria/Osterreich) had scored one of his many missed chances, history would be different. Too bad!
Hopefully we will have more participants in the future, it was a good exchange of information
DeleteDont get me wrong italy 1982 were a very good team. They had to be to beat brazil. I just feel brazil gave italy a big helping hand that day. Socrates said that brazil took to the pitch at the sarria stadium thinking they couldnt lose. Oscar has also stated that brazil were too over confident that day. I think that if brazil had needed to win instead of draw they would have got the result that day. But hey thats life.great teams lose matches every week in their leagues but in the world cup there is no second chance. In the brazil italy game 82 serginho was painful to watch and his lack of control and awareness was even more obvious against a great defence. But people have to remember why the brazil 82 team is so highly regared. They played fantasy football against whatever team they faced. It didnt matter to them and the loss against italy was down to circumstance, bad luck and sheer carelessness.. Regarding the 1986 brazilian team.. I think they couldve won it. I think with the talent brazil had in the 80s they couldve won 2 world cups. But santana shot himself in the foot at both tournaments. In 82 he took no decent forward and in 86 he left eder and renato portaluppi(gaucho) at home. Eder was heartbroken and his career plummeted afterwards. As nelinho said eders career was finished in 86. Although he was still a world class player on his day for a list of brazilian clubs.yes some people say 86 were better than 82 but i dont agree at all. If you could blend those 2 teams together the line up would be carlos leandro oscar luisinho ( maybe edinho or julio cesar) junior cerezo falcao eder zico socrates careca.. The 86 team were better than the french team of 86 and dominated most of the match but were unlucky again.. As for italy 90. They were a great team who lost out to the lucky and dirty argies.. Brazil shouldve destroyed argentina in 1990 but they missed chance after chance and argentina fluked it all the way to the final. Italy deserved that cup
ReplyDeleteAs far as 1986 casagrande was supposed to be the next great star but did not live up to expectations
ReplyDeleteI don't know if 1986 can be compared to 1982, because the stars of 82 were showing signs of age by 86
In one of my previous blog entries, I discusss 1986 Hungary-brazil friendly and some of Brazil's problems going into the tournament on and off the field
ReplyDeleteYes brazil went into a bit of a dip after the 1982 world cup..after the 3-2 loss to italy Brazil didnt play another international match until april 1983. Falcao refused to go on brazils tour of europe in 1983. Its hard to believe falcao appeared for brazil less than 30 times.. But the problem after the 82 world cup was the new manager carlos alberto parreira who completely changed or tried to change brazils philosophy ( he eventually got his way in 1994) .. The brazilian media and public didnt want parreira. The opinion of brazils 82 failure was that the team had thought themselves to special to play the game out for a 2-2 draw. Infact one of the headlines of the time read " is 2-2 not good enough ?" the publics opinion was santana had built a great team that had failed to play for the result they needed. Thewhole world knew brazil had the best team. But parreira said " there were some mistakes in spain.if necessary we must go in hard and win with strength not skill. But always attack the ball without fear of committing fouls. Parriera selected alot of different players. He selected such players as the no nonsense hard man marcio of santos.he chose flamengos full back marinho to play centre defence !! He selected leao as keeper again and a rookie from palmeiras named joao marcos as his deputy. Gremios full back paulo roberto was brought in along with vascos alberto borges( who was very decent) as was joao paulo from santos who was cover for eder.. It was a ramshackle team. Parreira ripped the heart out of the team. There was no team chemistry. He didnt build on the fine team brazil had produced in 81-82.infact he took it apart. Nobody knew the first team line up going into copa america 83. There were arguments between players and management. They got to the final and lost to uruguay in copa 83. They played good football in moments but they were playing a different more rugged game under parreira. The goal of that tournament was scored by eder against bolivia when he chipped the keeper from halfway. But the fantasy had gone. Santana came back in 1985 to try and sort things out before the 86 world cup.. Casagrande played at corinthians with socrates and came onto the scene late 84-85..he was a decent enough striker but i always thought he was too clumsy at times and carried too much weight. Santana took him to mexico where he didnt impress. He was not on the level of the brilliant careca..
DeleteBeautiful contributions Giles, thank you so much.
ReplyDeleteNo worries mate. The brazil teams of the 80s are my favourite topic ! The biggest underacheiving generation of footballers in history. They never won a thing but everybody knew they were the unofficial champions.Those great players inspired me to be a half decent player myself. I collected imported videos of 1980s brazilian league games,brazil internationals,qualifiers,south american club competitions etc and its nice to share some of the info i ve picked up over the years. Its a shame that the brazil players of that era will never be held in the same esteem as 1970 but not many players from brazil 1970 would have made it in the 1982 team. Now theres a topic for another discussion.. !!!
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHello Avz I may have accidentally deleted this comment of yours, please check
DeleteActually I deleted my self and reposted because i would like to be notified about replies. Thank you!
DeleteAvz... I have spoken to quite a few brazilians who were in there 20's during the 1982 world cup... And all of them have said that they blame tele santana for brazils loss to italy.. They seem to think santana could have chosen a different player at centre forward. Some say that if brazil had played italy 10 times italy would have won once... Others say that brazil were far too overconfident and arrogant in that game... Id be interested in any opinions you can find from fellow brazilians who watched that game live... Thank you
DeleteI`m brazilian but i was born in 1985, so everything i`ll say its derived from what i heard
ReplyDeleteChulapa is seen as a very good striker but not a "fine quality" one. He was a raw, rustic player who scored A LOT of goals that way. Maybe you can say that he was different from the rest of the team and thats why it didnt work, but if it had worked (brasil had won) you would say thats that why it worked.
Chulapa was totally crazy, he was suspended for more than a year once for kicking the referee`s head. They say that Tele made him calmer for the World Cup and thats maybe why de didnt play well.
Anyway, here in Brazil people dont try to find an excuse to the 82 fall (unlike any other fall of the seleção), they just say that we loss in some crazy way and thats very very said to everyone here. Watching the goals and key plays of the match, i personally blame toninho cerezo a bit.
If you can please visit my FB Football page: https://www.facebook.com/semfirulas
You can blame cerezo for the defeat but cerezo played really well against italy apart from that mistake. Did you know cerezo started to cry on the pitch and junior said" if you dont shut up im gonna punch you !" !! .. Cerezo was a great player though. He gave brazil balance and they missed him in the opening game against the ussr. Roberto mancini , vialli and others class cerezo as the best they played with. There was talk of andrade of flamengo playing in cerezos place but cerezo was the better player.. And i do remember serginho kicking the referee.. He was crazy mate !!
DeleteYes Giles... Andrade's nickname during his italian spell at Roma (88-89) was "Slow-motion" (moviola)... I doubt he would have improved brazil '82 :-) he was probably better in the early '80s with Zico and Junior at Flamengo, I guess.
DeleteNice one simone !! Another piece of info i had forgotten about... Maviola -slow motion ! Yeah andrade was a decent enough player but like you say past his best in 1988..he was always slow from what i saw.. I ve had discussions with italians in the past about the brazil 82 team and the majority agree brazil were a better team than italy but made too many mistakes. I just think brazil lacked a goalscorer.. The other week i had a debate about cerezo with a person who said he was shit ! Id be interested to know what how italian football remembers him ? Personally i think cerezo was a superb midfielder for brazil and every club he played for... What is the italian opinion of brazils players from the 82 world cup ? If you could give me some insight i would be very grateful simone.. I am a fan of both brazilian and italian football... Thank you
DeleteI agree with you Giles. Cerezo is considered with great sympathy here... he was a character, besides the fact that he was a great player and still important even in late age (90-91, he was instrumental in Sampdoria's winning the Serie A). He is still famous because of his son, that 'turned' female and started modeling (!). Regarding Brasil '82, both the players and the supporters think that the Azzurri have been both lucky and brave, but you know how lucky wins can quickly turn into a "glorious victory"! Basically that afternoon we had Paolo Rossi and you didn't. I went to Barcelona years later and I observed (from the outside) at the Sarrià stadium; trying to imagine how could it look that fateful afternoon. It was later tore down and turned into an apartment complex (sigh).
DeleteAnd i also remember cerezo was the adopted son of a circus clown.. Seriously !!
DeleteI really like Cerezo, specially because in 92-93 he played for my club (São Paulo) and played very well when we conquered the Libertadores and World Championship (i wont discuss if this is a real championship or not, for us it is really important and thats enough hehehe) 2 times. As Simone said, his son turned into a girl and he talks about it openly, whats impressive in a sexist enviorement as football.
DeleteAbout Serginho, its true that he never achieved the same performance at the seleção as in club level, but i think thats something common in brazil, only some kind of players suceed at the national team, not necessarily the best ones. For Sao Paulo he scored 242 goals in 399 matches (he is the club all time scorer) and in Santos 32 goals in 36 games (kind of impressive), winning championships for both and being the great scorer in 1983 brazilian championship. Sao Paulo and Santos were very strong teams and being an "idol" (thats how we speak in portuguese :)) for both in an era where the brazilian football was strong is something to respect... Anyway i have a very nice picture of him training in sunglasses (during a regular training session), if you want i can send you
Another fun fact is that Socrates used to tell people that one year later, around 8 players of each team played in italian Serie A, so they got together, made a barbecue and played a rematch. According to him, Brasil won easily (6 or 7x0, i cant remember). Obviously, no one knows if thats true or not...
DeleteAhah! Never heard of that before! :-D But he was a character, a great one, they don't make it like him anymore. The best we have nowadays are Neymar or Balotelli. Sad.
DeleteHello avz..its always great to talk to a brazilian.. I have saw a socrates interview where he mentions the rematch and barbeque... If he was joking i dont know ! .. Serginho was a good target man who scored alot of goals at club level but he lacked technique. I ve seen many sao paulo games he played in..careca is my favourite sao paulo player ever.. What a player he was... What is the opinion in brazil of the 1982 players ? And thanks for the offer of serginhos picture !!!
DeleteThe whole team here is seen as a very very special generation. Actually its the only team i`ve heard being compared to the 1970`s Pele.
DeleteZico, of course, is seen as the best player in that team, maybe the best player in brazilian football after Pele (we talk a lot about Garrincha and other Pele`s partners, but I would say Zico is seen as the 2nd one, even if we dont admit it). Then Socrates was also a genius, a player and a person who was special. Falcao is seen as a volante (defensive midfilder) who has the abillity of great playmakers, maybe the best volante in brazilian football. Those 3 are the most comented, followed by Junior, Eder and Cerezo. In club level, Chulapa, Dinamite and Oscar are very very valued by their supporters also.
Tele is seen as a football genius, someone who`s principles were a well played football, being offensive and always trying to be better then the oponent. After the 1986 World Cup he became seen as a bad-luck guy (Pé Frio), but after the 91 and 92 Libertadores with Sao Paulo that passed and he finished his career as a very victorious coach. I`ve heard a lot of players trained by him saying that in discipline, game mentality and technique he was the best coach they ever had
A lot of people over here blame that defeat for the defensive football we begun to play (specially in international level). I think thats a very delicate discussion, because we never know if we had players like them we would play beautifully again or not. In 1994 we won playing defensivelly with Romario geniality, in 2002 i liked the agressiveness we had with the ball (Rivaldo, Ronaldinho and Ronaldo were very hard to stop, with usefull bench options as Denilson, Edilson and even an young Kaka), but it was more a speed kind of team then a "envolvente" one as in 1982.
DeleteJonhatan Wilson wrote that the 1982 defeat wasnt about offensiveness x defensiveness or beauty x practical, but the 1982 seleção was a naive team. I dont know, i like to believe that the football has changed and playing as the 1982 team played is harder today but still possible
Thank you for your reply avz.. I know that serginho is considered a sao paulo hero for the goals he scored but his technique was poor .. We have players in england who are legends for their clubs and score loads of goals but never have the quality or ability to play international football. Serginho didnt play for brazil again after 1982 did he ? So even though he scored alot he got overlooked by other managers.. Tele santana was a great man but me and alot of other people believe he should have found another option in attack for the brazil 1982 team. I am aware of the writing of jonathan wilson ( inverting the pyramid book) and to a degree i agree with the naive theory. But with a top striker i believe brazil 82 would have scored more goals. I agree the game has changed mate but not totally for the better. The back pass rule was a great change, and the pitches nowadays are perfect. But MONEY has definitely ruined the game and GREED has taken over... Money is the motivation for results and this mentality has destroyed the art of the game in my opinion. Nowadays footballers are judged on their fitness size stamina work rate. Managers seem to build teams to get results but at the same time they forget people want to be entertained.. Football is an entertainment business. It used to be the peoples game until it sold its soul.. Im not saying there are no great players or teams today..there are..barcelona and spain of the past few years are great teams no doubt.. But after half an hour of watching them i am bored.. There is no risky passes played no variatio- just low risk possession football.. I doubt in years to come people will be searching for spains greatest goals of the world cup 2010 because there arent any ! Its dour.. Sometimes they go through a match without a shot at goal ! And that is the difference for me.. I dont wanna watch robotic football played by athletes! Theo walcott is the perfect example of a modern footballer.. Quicker than usain bolt but with no football brain.. Yes it would be hard for a team to play like brazil 82 today.. But i bet zico eder socrates and falcao would have loved to play on the perfect pitches we have now.. With the perfect boots and lightweight kits and the modern diets and training facilities. Footballers are definitely fitter today but i wouldnt say that makes them better players.. Today there are no gentiles or butchers from bilbao and no tackles from behind. The balls have changed for the worse. You kick a modern football and it dips and changes directions without any real power or effort. So you could say the brazilian players of 82 would have it easier in many ways. It just comes down to fitness.. You have to judge a team by the era it came from.. You cant say spain 2010 were better than brazil 70 because theres 40 years between them.. Some of the players of today would not survive in the past and vice versa.. Also the world cups have lost their magic because nowadays we know virtually every single player in the world. There will never be another josimar or schillaci that comes out of the blue. Football the game we love has lost alot of its magic and id be interested to know if others agree with me.. Is football still as loved as it once was in brazil avz ?????
DeleteIt also often claimed that santana didnt take reinaldo because of his disciplinary record. Not because of his injury.. He wasnt seriously injured at the time of the 82 world cup ?? I know he badly fouled zico in the atletico mineiro vs flamengo match in 81.. There was alot of bad blood between mineiro and flamengo. 2 equally matched teams in the early to mid 80s.. And santana didnt want a player bringing trouble to the squad..
DeleteThe brazilian people i know always try and find a reason or an excuse for the 1982 team ! And rightly so ! They were a centre forward short of the perfect attacking unit. .. Like you said- santana tried to calm serginho down. He was a big aggressive player who got goals at league level but was never world class. Santana also had to keep an eye on eder's temper.after the opening game santana should have dropped serginho and tried another option but he never did. But like you said it was a crazy defeat against italy but with a different forward it could have been a different story.
ReplyDeleteBesides that, we thought so highly about that Brazilian team that italian clubs bought basically all the players in subsequent years; we basically left in the Brazilian league only Eder and the defenders! I also had a Zico poster in my living room for a while, we was my favourite player in the '80 (behind Platini, my all-time idol) ;-)
DeleteThanks for the reply simone.. I bet you are a juventus fan !! I am not a brazilian by the way i am an english man who admires great teams and great players of any nation but brazil 82 are the most appealing. You would not believe some of the discussions i have on youtube and football forums!! Somebody is trying to convince me that argentina deserved to win the 1990 world cup !! Wtf ? And a man called hugodrax says italy 1982 had better players than brazil 82 in every position !! So its nice to discuss classic football with someone unbiased.. Platini was a great great player mate.. I used to enjoy watching him.a really clever playmaker and a great goalscorer. Platini also admired the brazil 82 team.. .. italian teams tried to sign eder after the world cup but atletico mineiro doubled or trebled his wages to keep him. I still have the newspapers and magazines from the time. Also edinho played for fiorentina didnt he ? Junior went to torino ,socrates-fiorentina, zico to udinese, cerezo to roma. Falcao was already there. .. Im surprised juventus never signed serginho !!!( lol) ..
DeleteEnding I went to udinese, batista to lazio, juary was signed by inter though I believe he was loaned
DeleteI've seen your comment only now mate. Yes, Juary was on loan from Avellino, he was surprisingly good down there (southern italy), but failed to make an impact in Inter. He later had his moment of glory with Porto, of course. He sometimes does commentary on TV in Italy.
DeleteI seem to remember that dirceu went to atletico madrid after the 1978 world cup and he also played for ascoli at some stage of his career.. Great player in his prime
DeleteAnd what a shame they destroyed the sarria mate.. That place should have been preserved forever..
ReplyDeleteIn one of failed transfer stories I discuss the UAE club that wanted to sign eder in 1983 for a world record fee
ReplyDeleteYes i think i ve read it mate. I Love your work. You are a great writer and thinker on football... I know eder had alot of offers after the world cup.. I can remember hearing he had thousands of marriage proposals as well. Plus thousands of letters of fan mail per week during the world cup.also thousands of babies in brazil were named after him in 82-83.. I also know he used to smoke more than socrates until tele santana gave him advice at gremio. Tele was like a father to eder from what i ve heard.
DeleteDon't know why, Giles sounded exotic enough to be brazilian! :-) don't get me started about Argentina 1990, it's still an open wound. Italy, Brazil, England, Germany, Jugoslavia, were better teams. Brazil missed a ton of chances before getting a counter attack and Caniggia's goal. Jugoslavia was very talented. Germany a bit tired in my opinion in the final games. England brilliant, just brilliant. I watched Jugoslavia-Colombia in Bologna, my home town. I remember 5 gigantic yugo fans that were sit in our places... we moved away gracefully, and survived to tell the anecdote. :-D
ReplyDeleteI don't like football forums, I think that followers of this blog are knowledgeable enough to avoid useless quarelling about the topic.
Do you think England had better chances in some of the following World Cups? (98, 2002 more than the others... if it wasn't for Seaman vs.Brazil...) Yes, I remember Eder was alway in the news (I'm a reader "guerin sportivo" since 1978, I was 4), Socrates was poor in Florence but the team was wrong. Edinho played for Udinese with Zico, before and after him; a skilful player. Junior was the best overall, with Falcao of course. Also, Batista to Lazio and Pedrinho to Catania (he also stayed there after relegation).
Yeah you get some total idiots on youtube and the forums !! This one idiot is claiming italy only got to the 1990 semi finals because of the mafia intimidating their opponents ! Yes edinho was at udinese.. My knowledge is fading !! You started your football education early just like me !..ironically im not a big fan of england!! All the best english players over the years hoddle,gasgcoine, beardsley etc have been wasted by us. If glenn hoddle had been born brazilan he would be seen as an all time great but england didnt always select him. The english way of coaching is abysmal. I ve played up to semi pro and its all kick and rush.no skill allowed !! I got subbed once for taking on my marker ! And this attitude still exists today at the pro clubs.. Regarding englands chances at the world cups 1998 till now. I think 98 under hoddle was our best team but we were unlucky against argentina. Since then we have had mediocre players in my opinion or should i say overrated players. Rooney was great at euro 2004 but hes been awful at tournaments since. Scholes- great for man utd poor for england. And so many of that generation were overrated. I thought england 1990 should have beaten west germany but i wouldnt say we were briliant !! I am called giles because my father named me after johnny giles the leeds united midfielder!! So im a leeds fan !! Wished i was from bologna ! Italy have the best women and food ! Glad you escaped the yugo fans.. If you have any more info or need any im always here !
DeleteI agree with your opinion about Hoddle. My favourite team in england is Tottenham, since that unlucky FA cup final '87: a team with Ardiles, Hoddle, Waddle, Clive Allen... what a game, it was broadcasted live here in Italy. Nice memories. And a beautiful kit as well (Holstein!) Rooney was also unlucky, he got injured in key moments. Probably others were overrated, but they won champions leagues with ManUTD Liverpool and Chelsea, so they definitely underperformed with the three lions on their chest.
DeleteIt's a pleasure to talk with you! You remind me that in 1990 my advert was published in World Soccer and I got thousands of mail from fans all over the world, and I started trading scarves and magazines, that's why I'm fond of international football. I have somewhere an Ipswich Town 90-91 home shirt! :-D
Its a pleasure talking to you mate. You know your stuff. I will be back later to comment. Im off to play 5 a side in my 1988 palmeiras away shirt. Had it since 1988 and it still looks new and fits me ! They dont make em foorball shirts like they used to simone !!!
DeleteSimone i vividly remember the 1987 cup final.. Great final .. Spurs vs coventry... I dont mean to name drop or boast but i played against dave bennet and mickey gynn of coventry city's 1987 team when they both played in the midland alliance league at the end of their careers..i got drunk on tequila slammers with dave bennet in the bar after the game !! .. Do you still have any of your old magazines and memorabillia... I used to collect old football shirts.. The old ones are still the best..
DeleteUnfortunately after many times I moved in the last decade I only kept the stuff I'm most connected to ... old "guerin sportivo" magazine about the world cup 78-2010, european cups, and the stuff about platini. I had a Manchester shirt (the sky-blue "maple leaf" one, 91) but I gave it away. I also had a nottingham forest shirt, now that I think about it. I would pay good money for a tottenham '87 home shirt. Dave Bennet, great! :-) I didn't get to know any players, apart from some local heros. My former girlfriend was Gino Cappello's nephew, you may not have heard of him but he played for Italy in the world cup 1950. He gave away all his memorabilia, unfortunately.
DeleteAnd
And you may not believe it, but an even former girlfriend had an affair with Marco Materazzi (yes, Zidane's best friend!!!) when they were 15. I saw the pictures, they hang out together during vacations in south italy. he was 1,85m tall already. Of course he was not my favourite player but he turned out to be everyone's darling after the final in 2006!
DeleteExcellent stuff mate!! Of course i believe you mate..its a small world. i hope she didnt cheat on you with materazzi behind your back !! Im sorry i dont know cappello from 1950. No relation to fabio ?? i won £500 on italy winning the 2006 world cup. I predicted it would be a repeat of 1982 and the match fixing scandal. And it was !! Italy are always at their beat when the world is against them !! Its a shame you got rid of your memorabillia.. My favourite shirts were the gremio palmeiras and vasco da gama shirts of the 80s. Adidas with coca cola sponsor. Indestructible material !! And looked so classy. Still got them. Football shirts have gone downhill now mate
DeleteLuckily they didn't see each other for years after those vacations, and we've been together years later. My present girlfriend has no connection with fooball, fortunately! No, no relations with Capello (the guy had an extra P, he was from Bologna).
DeleteGreat bet on 2006 Giles! I hope you had a good drink and a toast to the italian players with some of that money! :-D
Women are a pain !! I did have a few drinks to toast the italian players. They werent the best italian team but we didnt want the french winning it did we !! People said i was mad to bet on italy!! Which brazilian player that played in serie a was your favourite .. I used to love watching careca ... But what brazilian impressed you the most ?
DeleteI don't know if you remember Joao Paulo, but he did well for a small team like Bari , I also liked Branco at genoa
DeleteI saw Ronaldo live once (Bologna-Inter friendly, summer '97, the day Baggio debuted for Bologna). I guessed that he was the best: skill, brute force, speed. Everything. Among the classics, I would say Zico. And Careca in the middle, deadly striker. Some friends had the season ticket for Bologna in 88-89-90 and they say that a duo Maradona-Careca was never to be seen again. Among the others I saw in a stadium, Zidane and Baggio were two or three steps beyond the others.
DeleteSp, I remember him. He was impressive in his first season, in such a weak team. If I remember him, he had a serious injury. Sad stuff. Branco was great, unfortunately his free-kick ... kicked Juventus out of European football in 1991, for the first time in our history. I distinctly remember I was speechless for an entire day at school.
DeleteIf you search back in the blog my second 'soccer memories' entry is about juventus' disastrous 90/91 season
DeleteI guess I'm still trying to come to terms with that! :-D
DeleteJoao Paulo was badly injured in one of the first matches of platt with Bari in 91/92 season, this may have contributed to their relegation as he was a key member of the squad, he was lost for the season, so Bari put him on ice along with Australian farina and got boban on loan and also jarni
DeleteYep, and they were not as brilliant as him (in Bari, of course, as while Farina was quickly forgotten, Boban went on to shine for Milan and Jarni played some good consistent football for Juve - If i remember well he won the champions league with us, or the '95 "scudetto" (league title)
DeleteYes i remember little joao paulo brilliant player. I remember watching him in the copa america 91 i think. Brazil have had quite alot of really good players that have faded away or never reached their true potential. Joao paulo was one of them in my opinion.. Neto, djalminha,denilson,robinho,adriano there are loads. I didnt see much of branco at genoa to be honest a few games. His free kicks were on par with eder's. Ronaldo the phenomenon i already knew you were gonna say him ! A freak of nature the best forward i have ever seen the best individual footballer i ve ever seen. He could do things maradona couldnt. But for a strike partnership maradona and careca were great to watch. You lucky git for living in italy at a time of so many great players
DeleteYes we were, but sadly the balance shifted and now all the best is abroad. We have to stick with the leftovers of the other leagues: Llorente, Tevez... Kaka... :-(
DeleteJarni was part of 95 scudetto squad then he transfered to betis
DeleteDirceu also played for Verona 1982/83
ReplyDeleteRight, I forgot him. And for Napoli before Maradona and also Como if I remember well. What a player. Sadly missed.
DeletePlatini said that hoddle been french he would have had over 100 caps
DeleteWasnt dirceu also in the 1970 brazil squad as a youngster ?
DeleteDefinitely mate. But I liked Waddle more. Did Hoddle came out with that weird comment about handicapped children, and was sacked from the managerial job... was it him?
DeleteSp1873, what about your beginnings in the world of football fandom/playing?
Wasnt dirceu also in the 1970 brazil squad as a youngster ?
DeleteI believe that was a different dirceu, I will have to check, the one who starred in 1978 WC was killed in a car accident in 1995
DeleteYes hoddle was sacked after making those controversial comments whereby he implied that handicapped people were paying for their sins in their past life, as far as myself I describe everything in the 'about the author' portion on top of this blog, but I became a fan in 1982 after the WC so that tournament is very special to me, I started following soccer in the post 1982 world, to give more details I am Armenian born in Iran but havibg lived in USA since 1985
DeleteYes i think there was a jose dirceu that was in the 1970 squad.. The dirceu we are discussing is dirceu guimareas ( if my spelling is correct) .. But dirceu guimareas was a very talented youngster i believe his pro career started around 1970
DeleteSp, I guess you followed NASL? What is your opinion about that league? Where you a fan of Andranik Eskandarian? I've read a couple of books about the league and Cosmos, and watched the beautiful "once in a lifetime" documentary. Excellent.
DeleteMate, if you have august or september issue of world soccer 1990 you'll find my name in the ads section :-)
DeleteYes and rank eskandarian was like myself an Armenian from Iran, by the time I arrived in USA the NASL had folded, eskandarian is mostly remembered for his own goal vs Scotland in 1978, I vaguely remember one of his relatives went to the same school as I did when I was a child
DeleteGreat, great, between us there's a kind of "6 level of separation"! :-) one link more and we'll get close to Maradona or Pelè :-D
DeleteHey simone... World soccer magazine collection 1988 - 1995 is on ebay mate
DeleteWow amazing personal stories
ReplyDeleteI just visited your "about the author" page man, I'm sorry I didn't find it before. (I was stuck with the link on the right navigational bar, "view my complete profile", and there wasn't anything in particular!)
DeleteJust saw your comment simone... Yes the italian league used to be great mid 80's 90's .. All quality imports and big names..( the three foreign player rule in the 80s ) now serie a is full of imports the same as in england ( though not as bad) .. There arent many english players left in the premier league. I prefered it with less imports to be honest.. When italy played like italy brazil played like brazil and the germans played like germans... Nowadays its almost identical the world over
DeleteHis son Aleco played in mls
ReplyDeleteI didn't know about that. I saw his goal in the world cup, there was a Espn classics feature of sorts some months ago. Classic stuff.
DeleteIt's still possible to win a World Cup without an excellent striker, remember Stephane guivarc'h in 1998
ReplyDeleteYeah i remember guivarc'h mate.... But france 98 were a different team to brazil 82.. Brazil were all about atrack ...france 98 were much more defensive minded... It was a crime brazil didnt take a more skilled forward.. But like you say it is possible to win without a class striker. I just think brazil were crying out for a forward- not just to score but to link up play and beat a defender
DeleteI think brazil just did not expect Italy come out and attack from the start, remember Italy HAD to win to advance
ReplyDeleteYou may have a point about brazil not expecting italy to attack... But socrates oscar and junior have all said that brazil were too overconfident that day. They had just thrashed the world champions and thought a draw or a win against italy was a formality... And if you watch that whole game you notice how poor serginho was.he did nothing and was no threat at all.the miss was pathetic. Yes he wasnt on the pitch when italy got the winner but with a decent forward who knows what damage brazil could have done to italy. And santana must take the blame for that
DeleteLet me ask you all, what would you think about a debate topic every week?
ReplyDeleteA debate topic on classic football players teams and games would be a great idea mate
DeleteI agree!
DeleteBonus video for you friends, and have a good weekend. Zico, Falcao and Cerezo meet in udinese-Roma, 1983: http://video.gazzetta.it/udinese-roma-zico-falcao-di-natale-totti/a2585f74-3d6e-11e3-8db9-990df42f6d32
ReplyDeleteThank you simone how very thoughtful .. I will watch it later when i am fishing ! Have a good weekend my italian comrade..
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