For this first written
Interview on the blog, I have the pleasure to ask questions from Mr. Gary
Jordan, the author of the book ‘Out of the Shadows: The Story of the 1982
England World Cup Team’
This work chronicles the England National Team under Ron
Greenwood starting 1977 and culminating with the undefeated adventure of the
1982 World Cup.
On a personal
level, this book brought back a lot of memories from that era and I also
learned new information that I was unaware of.
If the names of Keegan, Brooking, Shilton, Hoddle and those
Admiral jerseys strike a chord of nostalgia for you, this book is well worth a
read.
Question 1:
Soccernostalgia: Hello Mr. Jordan, to start off congratulations
on your well-researched and informative book.
What prompted you
to write this book, Is it because perhaps you became a Football fan in this era
and have a connection to it?
Response:
Thank you for your kind words, and taking the time to read the book. The book
mainly come about because the era had not been written about in great length,
largely because it wasn’t a particularly succesful period for the national
team. It was also the first World Cup that I rememebr watching on TV as a
child.
Question 2:
Soccernostalgia: What are your earliest memories of
Football and the English National Team itself?
Response:
Earliest memory was the 1977 FA Cup final. Before I realised I had a local team
on my doorstep (Wimbledon) I followed Manchester United. The final against
Liverpool that year was the first time I realised the game was such a big
event. As for England I was treated to a trip to Wembley to see us play
Bulgaria in November 1979, Glenn Hoddles debut which he marked with a
tremendous goal.
Question 3:
Soccernostalgia: Can you explain your general process in
writing this book? The duration of research, number of interviews, etc.
Response: From
initial pitch to the publisher it was roughly a two-year process. A lot of the
book was from research – books, magazines, YouTube footage. Being reasonably
new to writing my name isnt that established and I didn’t get that many
interviews.
Question 4:
Soccernostalgia: Paul Mariner wrote the foreword for your
book, what other prominent players of that era were interviewed for this work?
Were they forthcoming in their recollections?
Response: As
mentioned above, not many were forthcoming for interviews, was knocked back by
some who had agents involved which was annoying. Live and learn I guess. Paul
Mariner has been very kind and it was only fitting that he did the foreword for
me as he scored the goal that took us to Spain.
Question 5:
Soccernostalgia: To go back to the beginning, Ron
Greenwood took over in the summer of 1977 after the Don Revie scandal. At the
time, England were virtually eliminated from the 1978 World Cup qualifiers
(though they still maintained an outside chance).
There is always
the ‘what-if’ Brian Clough had been appointed factor.
Was Ron Greenwood
just a safe bet for the FA?
Response: Of
course. Greenwood was well known in the FA to be a safe choice. His caliber of
coaching couldn’t be knocked though, and even if he wasn’t as forthcoming as
Revie or Clough when it came to a soundbite, he was very solid in his role.
Question 6:
Soccernostalgia: The Admiral jerseys are some of the
indelible images that define that era. I was also surprised by reading your
book that it was at the behest of Don Revie that these jerseys were chosen for
England. What is the mystique surrounding this brand of jerseys?
Response: It
was Revie that introduced stripes down the famous plain white shirt when first
appointed. Some said they now looked like clown suits! Admiral were the top kit
makers in the land at that time, if you weren't playing in an Admiral kit you
soon would be. They were a juggernaught that sadly lost their way when other
big manufacturers came on the scene and could be more competitive with what
they could offer clubs, and fans.
Question 7:
Soccernostalgia: How did the cohabitation and the policy of
alternating England’s number ones (Peter Shilton and Ray Clemence) come about?
What do you generally think of this policy?
Response: It’s
a queston that always comes up, and each individual will tell you their
prefereed choice. If he could've played both he would have. Greenwood couldn’t
decide between the two and this led to what I believe was the cause of our bad
qualifying campaign. A sloid back line will need a solid goalie behind them.
Without a true number one they will become uneasy. Another reason why the
defence was so slid at the actual finals.
Question 8:
Soccernostalgia: After qualifying rather comfortably in the
qualifiers of the 1980 Euros, England struggled for the 1982 World Cup
qualifiers. What has been the accepted reason for this inconsistency?
Was the squad too
dependent on Keegan and therefore struggled in his long absence for the early
qualifiers?
Response:
Keegan was one factor, other injuries too meant the team ws always being
changed. The smaller nations back then were to be swept away, and im not
suggesting England were complacent in their approach but these nations (Norway,
Switzerland) had players that were competing in top European leagues. This
experience was rubbing off on teammates and it was a matter of time before they
shocked someone. Just so happened it was in England's group.
Question 9:
Soccernostalgia: Ron Greenwood’s ‘false resignation’ on the
airplane in the summer of 1981 is part of England’s Football folklore. What
prompted his decision, did he feel the team was at an impasse?
Response: He
certainly felt he had carried the team as far as it could go at that point. He
didn’t have to prove himself anymore, or put himself in the firing line of the
notorious British press. His loyal players came to the fore and talked sense
into him. It wasn’t the right time to go.
Question 10:
Soccernostalgia: The relative non-use of a genuine talent
like Glenn Hoddle has always been part of the debates surrounding the English
National Team. Why did Greenwood (and actually Bobby Robson as well) use him so
sparingly? It is because Greenwood wanted his tried and tested players and did
want to risk or was there more?
Response:
Hoddle was the kind of talent that only comes around every so often. Clough
stated he wouldve built his team around him. Perhaps this was Greenwoods way of
not being influenced by anyone outside. A stubborn approach. He was faithful to
his team and Hoddle was a luxury player at the time, that if played could've
backfired.
Question 11:
Soccernostalgia: England’s defeat at Oslo in September 1981
and the Norwegian Television commentary is an often-referenced part of Football
History.
I remember
reading (in World Soccer) that the English Football League had proposed to
cancel the preceding weekend League fixtures so that the National Team could
prepare.
However, Ron
Greenwood insisted the League matches to go ahead so that the players could get
competitive match practice.
After the
matches, Trevor Brooking, Dave Watson and Steve Coppell had to withdraw due to
injuries (a running theme for England).
Would it be fair
to say that this was Ron Greenwood era’s at its lowest?
Response: Oh
yes, Norway was very, very low (only USA 1950 and Iceland 2016 can come close)
I mentioned how some of their players were playing across Europe. It was only
one or two. These were the cliched teachers, accountants and butchers, mere
amateurs of the game. In hindsight would a clear weekend off before have
stopped this defeat? No one will ever know.
Question 12:
Soccernostalgia: One of the new things I learned by reading
your book was that England’s participation at the World Cup was compromised at
the outbreak of the Falklands War. This possibility was something that I had
not read (or just missed) on other publications of that era. Nor did I know
about the team being ‘insured’ against any terrorist activity.
Was there public
(political) pressure to renounce on participating or was the English FA itself
willing?
Response: With
the Falklands conflict being as brutal as it was, it was clear that it was a
very delicate position the FA found themselves in. They were in constant
contact with the government. In the end it was their decision and I believe it
was the right one to go and play. It would be on everyone's minds as the team
came under heavy security, but it was the right choice.
Question 13:
Soccernostalgia: Another aspect that your book references,
is how Greenwood could rarely call up a settled squad as it seemed like there
were always injuries. It was amazing to learn that after so many years in the
National team set up; Trevor Francis managed to play three straight matches for
England, only during the 1982 World Cup. Also, how Bryan Robson was the only
player ever present during the qualifiers.
Was the shear
long length of the English League programme and its unending matches and
rescheduled fixtures a detriment to his preparations? Did Greenwood use that as
an excuse or just accepted the reality of it?
Response:
Everyone knows that the English season is long and draining on our players come
tournament time. It's an issue still to this day. How do you correct it? I'm not
sure as so many people are traditionalists in their view. I don’t think
Greenwood used it as an excuse, he knew how to look after the players during
training to stop any further burn out.
Question 14:
Soccernostalgia: One must remember that England struggled
during the 1982 World Cup qualifiers, where they lost three matches. In fact,
England had the worst record of any of the European qualifying teams. How did
England go from that to essentially winning game after game in the friendlies
going into the World Cup? Was it because the pressure was lifted and they could
now perform or did Greenwood devise a successful strategy?
Response:
Whenever you pull on an England jersey there's always a certain amount of
pressure to perform, from friendlies to tournaments. The gap between qualifying
and the finals was one where the players were playing for places. Knowing the
carrot of a World Cup place is at stake will only raise your game, or at least
it should. The training may have not have been as intense as during qualifying
but I don't believe it altered a great deal.
Question 15:
Soccernostalgia: It is quite unbelievable when one thinks
that Kevin Keegan and Trevor Brooking’ s entire World Cup experience amounted
to roughly twenty-seven minutes.
Especially in
case of Keegan, he must surely be one of the best players ever to virtually
have not played in a World Cup.
This is complete
conjecture but how differently would England have played with the two being fit
for duty?
Response: Its
mentioned by a couple of players in the book that they believe it would have
been different. It's so hypothetical. Logic says we would have been better, but
we will have to file this one under the "who knows" category.
Question 16:
Soccernostalgia: On a personal note, the 1982 World Cup is
my first memory of Football and is the event that turned me into a fan (I was
nine years old at the time).
I remember the
events surrounding this World Cup as it opened up a new world for me. What are
your personal memories from this WC? (I am assuming you experienced it as well;
please correct me if I am wrong).
Response: Yes
this was my first real tournament that I fully experienced. The filling out of
wallcharts, plotting teams progress through the rounds. I was the excited
11-year-old that watched with enthusiasm. The crackly commentary, as if done
through an old phone line. The bright colours of all the teams, knowing who the
best teams and players were. And here they were in front of us playing out a
month long soap opera. Easy to get hooked.
Question 17:
Soccernostalgia: You mention the fact that when Bobby
Robson became England Manager, he met Kevin Keegan and in fact hinted that he
would select him, yet without a word discarded him. Has there been further
explanation from Bobby Robson and Keegan himself about this incident?
Response: I
know the two made up years after, how much was said for the press as opposed to
what they really believed who knows. Did Keegan have a sense of entitlement?
I'm sure he learnt from that moment, and he wouldn’t treat anyone like that in
the future when he was manager at club and international level.
Question 18:
Soccernostalgia: The crux of your book deals with the 1982
World Cup qualifiers and the World Cup, but it’s generally a book about the
entire Ron Greenwood era.
Objectively how
do you view his tenure? Which areas do you feel he excelled and what do you
think he may have gotten wrong (in terms of tactics and personnel)?
Response: The
truth to how I belive his time in charge went is in the book title. He did
bring us Out Of The Shadows, and back into the world stage. Of course, he had
flaws, too loyal, too set in his ways, but what manager doesn’t? Far from
genius he was as honest and hardworking as they come. His character perhaps
rubbed off onto the team and they didn’t have that ruthless streak when it was
needed most.
Question 19:
Soccernostalgia: After so many decades after the fact, Ron
Greenwood is generally regarded as a Gentleman and a well-respected Manager.
How did the Press really treat him especially during the struggles of the World
Cup qualification?
(I ask this
because his successor Bobby Robson is nowadays eulogized in much the same way,
but I remember how the Press were constantly clamoring him to be sacked)
Response: It
was a case of after Revie nothing could be as bad. They gave Greenwood some
slack as he took over a team that was severely lacking in confidence. They knew
it was a work in progress. When the losses to the Swiss and Norway came he of
course took some flak, but most were leneint in their headlines compared to how
Robson and later Graham Taylor were treated.
Question 20:
Soccernostalgia: Did you learn of new events in researching
for this book that surprised you?
Response: Not
so much new events. I knew of most of them, but needed to get more insight
(Revie sacking/Falklands/Keegan's trip to Germany)
Question 21:
Soccernostalgia: In researching for this book, did you come
across any interesting anecdotes that you could share? (These could be stories
that perhaps did not make the final cut)
Response: Most
of the stories made the book, even in a scaled down version. I'm sure if I had
full access to all the players I'd be able to shed more light on some of the
dressing room talk, there's always a story to tell within those walls it's just
how much the players want to reveal.
Question 22:
Soccernostalgia: What is next for you as far as future
project?
Response: I am
currently researching and writing a book about the Ipswich Town team in their
heyday of the late 70's – early 80s. All being well that should be published
next year.
Soccernostalgia: Once again, I would like to thank you for
the interview and your sharing of your memories.
To get news from
Mr. Jordan, you may follow him on
To
order the book
Pitch
Publishing (2018)
ISBN-10: 1785313169
ISBN-13: 978-1785313165
Language: English
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